Is there a good, small freeware program for XP for drawing
schematics? I don't need to route boards, so I wouldn't need that
function. But it would be nice if it had a library of standard
symbols.

On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:08:54 -0600, George <gh424NO824SPAM@cox.net>
wrote:

>Is there a good, small freeware program for XP for drawing
>schematics? I don't need to route boards, so I wouldn't need that
>function. But it would be nice if it had a library of standard
>symbols.

Kicad http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page and
gEDA http://geda.seul.org/wiki/ are both FOSS apps that include
schematic capture. Both also include netlist generation and PCB layout
that you may not use BUT since they are intended to do real boards
they both have rule checking capability that you may not find in pure
drawing programs and which may be useful in warning you about
interconnection errors.

Kicad is a little easier to install under Windows. There is a Windows
port for the gEDA toolset but it's happier under Linux/Mac.

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

> On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:08:54 -0600, George <gh424NO824S...@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Is there a good, small freeware program for XP for drawing
> >schematics?
===========================
tinycad?

Rich Webb wrote:
>Kicad is a little easier to install under Windows.
>
True, though understated.

>There is a Windows port for the gEDA toolset
>
Actually, no.
I had some old bookmarks to earlier Windows binaries of gEDA,
but those pages no longer exist.
The versions were so out of date that they were deleted (I'm
guessing).

Getting someone to put together a Windoze installer these days
seems to be a once-bitten--twice-shy thing.
Windoze weenies take a lot more hand-holding
and are very vocal and insistant that they get help;
Because of the relative cluelessness of those users,
releasing Windows binaries seems to simply hurt the brand.

It *is* possible for Windows users to build gEDA themselves:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:WT ... pair+Linux
"Words to the Wise" at the bottom.

>but it's happier under Linux/Mac.
>
I thinks it's more that users of Unix-like OSes are simply more
clueful
and more easily contented with works-in-progress software.

>[...]since they are intended to do real boards
>they both have rule checking capability
>that you may not find in pure drawing programs
>
That can't be emphasized enough.

"George" <gh424NO824SPAM@cox.net> wrote in message
news:VqWzj.62510$Ft5.7279@newsfe15.lga...
> Is there a good, small freeware program for XP for drawing
> schematics? I don't need to route boards, so I wouldn't need that
> function. But it would be nice if it had a library of standard
> symbols.
>


The one from http://www.expresspcb.com will do nicely. You'll need their ExpressSch
package. I don't know if you need to download the pcb package, too.

The only odd thing is getting used to clicking then hitting the spacebar to
end a wire connection.

Bob

Rich Webb wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:08:54 -0600, George <gh424NO824SPAM@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Is there a good, small freeware program for XP for drawing
>>schematics? I don't need to route boards, so I wouldn't need that
>>function. But it would be nice if it had a library of standard
>>symbols.
>
> Kicad http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page and
> gEDA http://geda.seul.org/wiki/ are both FOSS apps that include
> schematic capture. Both also include netlist generation and PCB layout
> that you may not use BUT since they are intended to do real boards
> they both have rule checking capability that you may not find in pure
> drawing programs and which may be useful in warning you about
> interconnection errors.
>
> Kicad is a little easier to install under Windows. There is a Windows
> port for the gEDA toolset but it's happier under Linux/Mac.

You could also give the free/student version of pspice a try. It has a
windows installer and the usual windows handholding.

stan wrote:
>You could also give the free/student version of pspice a try.
>
Going that route, rather than using the crippleware version
of software that is increasingly poorly supported,
he could get a free copy of LTspice.

On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:08:54 -0600, George <gh424NO824SPAM@cox.net>
wrote:

>Is there a good, small freeware program for XP for drawing
>schematics? I don't need to route boards, so I wouldn't need that
>function. But it would be nice if it had a library of standard
>symbols.
>

If you don't intend to produce PC boards, (or generate netlists or do
electrical rule checks) then almost any general CAD program that
allows you to create re-usable symbols or blocks can be used - your
first few drawings may take some extra time as you build a component
library, but you'll soon have all the symbols you commonly need built
(and they'll be built the way _you_ want them).

Even after using professional ECAD program with a large component
library (Protel/Altium) for many years, I still find I have to build a
new component or two for each new job.


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

George wrote:

> Is there a good, small freeware program for XP for drawing
> schematics? I don't need to route boards, so I wouldn't need that
> function. But it would be nice if it had a library of standard
> symbols.

Most of the commercial CAD pacakages have limited versions available
free of charge.

Otherwise you could try ExpressPCB's software
http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm ... ftware.htm

or one of the several freeware packages.

Graham

On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:08:54 -0600, George <gh424NO824SPAM@cox.net>
wrote:

>Is there a good, small freeware program for XP for drawing
>schematics? I don't need to route boards, so I wouldn't need that
>function. But it would be nice if it had a library of standard
>symbols.
>

LT Spice draws decent schematics.

John

Late at night, by candle light, George <gh424NO824SPAM@cox.net> penned
this immortal opus:

>Is there a good, small freeware program for XP for drawing
>schematics? I don't need to route boards, so I wouldn't need that
>function. But it would be nice if it had a library of standard
>symbols.
>

TinyCAD is good for schematic capture, it comes with a rather well
rounded library of common parts. However, it won't export to any
common CAD formats. OTOH it exports net lists.

A9CAD is pretty nice for electrical and mechanical drawings, saves
*.dwg and *.dxf but the free version doesn't make libraries.

DraftChoice for Windows is another option, it's abandonware by now so
just ignore the nags. Makes libraries and exports *.dxf.

- YD.

--
Remove HAT if replying by mail.

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:vah1t315eub9d3rpo0eemh10lksa43ne2t@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:08:54 -0600, George <gh424NO824SPAM@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Is there a good, small freeware program for XP for drawing
>>schematics? I don't need to route boards, so I wouldn't need that
>>function. But it would be nice if it had a library of standard
>>symbols.
>>
>
> LT Spice draws decent schematics.

I fully agree, and it is possible to post the ascii file in usenet so
others can evaluate the circuit and modify as needed. But it does not have
a good library of TTL and general purpose analog ICs, other than what they
sell. But for just drawing a schematic, it is as good as any, with the
bonus of being able to simulate operation.

I use PADS Logic for schematics, and it is good if you want to do large
designs and generate netlists and use component libraries for PCBs. It can
be hard to use for a beginner, but they have a free version of their entire
package that will work for small designs. You can get it at http://www.mentor.com.

Paul

Thanks very much for the suggestions.

Does each program have its own proprietary file format? For
example, I ran across some project documentation that has everything
in Eagle format. Is an Eagle .sch file the same as an ExpressPCB
..sch file? In other words, are there any standards for this, or are
the formats for each different?

At the risk of being ungreatful, it seems to me to be less than
totally useful to require installing a particular program just to
view a schematic. Such as in this example:

http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/download.html

Anyway, my intended output would probably be .gif or .jpg files, but
I can see where it might be useful to at least have available a
format that someone else could take further and produce boards from
if they wanted to. So maybe something like Eagle Light or
ExpressPBC would be the way to go. Not sure whether TinyCAD would
do that.

George wrote:
>Does each program have its own proprietary file format?
>[...]In other words, are there any standards for this,
>or are the formats for each different?
>
Very topical:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.elec ... e-industry

>Anyway, my intended output would probably be .gif or .jpg files,
>
The longer you keep it in vector format, the more flexible it will be.
Stay away from JPEG completely.

>So maybe something like Eagle Light
>
If you are planning to use other people's libraries,
EAGLE is the WORST choice you could make;
others have found their labors unusable (DRM):
**The Downside of EAGLE** by Markus Zingg
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arc ... -be-opened

On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 16:39:57 -0500, "Paul E. Schoen" <pstech@smart.net>
wrote:

>
>"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
>news:vah1t315eub9d3rpo0eemh10lksa43ne2t@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:08:54 -0600, George <gh424NO824SPAM@cox.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Is there a good, small freeware program for XP for drawing
>>>schematics? I don't need to route boards, so I wouldn't need that
>>>function. But it would be nice if it had a library of standard
>>>symbols.
>>>
>>
>> LT Spice draws decent schematics.
>
>I fully agree, and it is possible to post the ascii file in usenet so
>others can evaluate the circuit and modify as needed. But it does not have
>a good library of TTL and general purpose analog ICs, other than what they
>sell. But for just drawing a schematic, it is as good as any, with the
>bonus of being able to simulate operation.
>

I've spent the last hour or so running sims in LT Spice, and the
schematic editor is OK. It does have the annoying feature that it can
leave line segments dangling and doesn't move parts very
intelligently. The ascii format is indeed cool.


>I use PADS Logic for schematics, and it is good if you want to do large
>designs and generate netlists and use component libraries for PCBs. It can
>be hard to use for a beginner, but they have a free version of their entire
>package that will work for small designs. You can get it at http://www.mentor.com.
>

I use PADS Logic for official schematic entry, and it's the best
schematic editor I've ever seen. It's very smart, moves everything
right, and never leaves anything dangling. The resulting schematics
also look great, on the screen or printed. I sure wish it could copy
and paste between sheets, without the silly "group" thing.

PADS can ascii-out a schematic, too.

John

> At the risk of being ungreatful, it seems to me to be less than
> totally useful to require installing a particular program just to
> view a schematic. Such as in this example:
>
> http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/download.html

well you can just view the exported PNG schematic here
http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/parts.html

limor

JeffM says...

> If you are planning to use other people's libraries,
> EAGLE is the WORST choice you could make; others have
> found their labors unusable (DRM):

Well, I found this summary of what's out there:

http://www.fritzing.org/development/market-overview

And it appears to confirm what I've noticed elsewhere - that
Eagle is probably the most widely used among the
occasional-use/hobbiest crowd where I would be.

I installed TinyCAD, but didn't really like the layout much.
So I may try Eagle Light, and at least I'll see what others'
Eagle schematics look like.

ladyada@gmail.com says...

>> At the risk of being ungreatful, it seems to me to be
>> less than totally useful to require installing a
>> particular program just to view a schematic. Such as
>> in this example:

>> http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/download.html

> well you can just view the exported PNG schematic here
> http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/parts.html

> limor

Thanks very much. Obviously I had missed that. I apologize
for, uh, being ungreatful. And not being very observant.

And thanks for all the projects.

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:77a4t3dq27kpel6u47itcnobgpnvjt38aj@4ax.com...

> I've spent the last hour or so running sims in LT Spice, and the
> schematic editor is OK. It does have the annoying feature that it can
> leave line segments dangling and doesn't move parts very
> intelligently. The ascii format is indeed cool.
>

Is this some kind of external program? I remember Jon something wrote an
LTSpice to ascii translator. Or, is it built in now? If so, how to I access
it?

Thanks,
Bob Monsen

George wrote:
>I found this summary of what's out there:
>http://www.fritzing.org/development/market-overview ...
>
A nice page by Andre Knoerig; it is more current than many others.
It appears he wants to produce his own software
to enter the low-cost ECAD market niche.
....but the page is sketchy WRT Cadsoft's limitations.

JeffM wrote:
>>If you are planning to use other people's libraries,
>>EAGLE is the WORST choice you could make;
>>others have found their labors unusable (DRM):
::[link re-inserted]
::**The Downside of EAGLE** by Markus Zingg
::http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/browse_frm/thread/
f794e82d26b59e18/d7cf4149edb93ac7?q=*-*-website+reuse+paying.*+*-I-
will-switch+cracked-*+*.would.not.help.*+zzz+after-*-*-version-*+copied
+*.*.unlock.*.designs+*-*-*-*-exchange-*-*-*-*-third-party+reused+qq+*-
*-single-bit-*-*-*-*+useless+*-*-*-projects-could-no-longer-be-opened
::
>...And it appears to confirm what I've noticed elsewhere
> - that Eagle is probably the most widely used
>among the occasional-use/hobbiest crowd where I would be.

As I pointed out, reusing others' library components
with recent[1] versions of Cadsoft EAGLE is a minefield.

My intuition is that a lot of those data points are old posts
going back years and years and years
that reflect a distortion of the "installed base"
--and don't reflect the *current* reality.[1]

If, OTOH, you look at the trend of *new* users,
the trend is moving in the **open source** direction.
Most folks don't like the notion of *changing the rules down the road*
as Cadsoft has done surreptitiously.

e.g. KiCAD doesn't have the size/layers limitations of a demo
AND IT DOESN'T LOCK YOU OUT OF YOUR FILES.

Here's an extreme example of "No limitations" (gEDA)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.elec ... ards-up-to
and another (gEDA again)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.elec ... +it-worked
..
..
[1] Those who are aware of the more-recently-added DRM
are avoiding EAGLE
(and, as Markus' post shows, old users are abandoning EAGLE).

Maybe you've used Windoze so long
that you are used to being treated like a thief.
I find that most people don't like that sort of behavior.
Giving money/support to companies/people who treat you badly
seems foolish to me.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:Iv ... fight-them

JeffM says...

> If, OTOH, you look at the trend of *new* users, the
> trend is moving in the **open source** direction. Most
> folks don't like the notion of *changing the rules down
> the road* as Cadsoft has done surreptitiously.

> e.g. KiCAD doesn't have the size/layers limitations of a
> demo AND IT DOESN'T LOCK YOU OUT OF YOUR FILES.

Yes, but if most people like me (strictly hobby stuff) use
Eagle, there still seems to be little point in using
something else as long as it will work for what I want.

> Maybe you've used Windoze so long that you are used to
> being treated like a thief. I find that most people
> don't like that sort of behavior. Giving money/support
> to companies/people who treat you badly seems foolish to
> me.

For a minute there I thought you were making a point about
the iPhone.

"Bob Monsen" <rcmonsen@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:pcBAj.4890$fX7.3932@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
> "John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
> message news:77a4t3dq27kpel6u47itcnobgpnvjt38aj@4ax.com...
>
>> I've spent the last hour or so running sims in LT Spice, and the
>> schematic editor is OK. It does have the annoying feature that it can
>> leave line segments dangling and doesn't move parts very
>> intelligently. The ascii format is indeed cool.
>>
>
> Is this some kind of external program? I remember Jon something wrote an
> LTSpice to ascii translator. Or, is it built in now? If so, how to I
> access it?

The ASCII format is the default for LTSpice (SwitcherCAD SwCAD III), and
you can just select it from the File|Open menu to pen the schematic and
view it. For an ASCII file posted on usenet, you must select the text, and
copy and paste into a text file with .ASC extension.

The component and line moves are a little tricky, but they can be cleaned
up once you get used to the way it works. They have a "Drag" function that
usually maintains connectivity. It even works with group moves. This is a
serious shortcoming with many schematic editors I have evaluated. It's one
reason I chose PADS over Eagle, Protel, Kicad, and Electronics Workbench.

I am thinking about making a converter between LTspice and PADS. I already
made a converter from Futurenet to PADS, but it has only limited function.

Futurenet was made Public Domain about 15 years ago, when DATAIO abandoned
it, and they sent me their latest version on a dozen 3.5" floppies. It's
really an excellent schematic editor, but it runs on MSDOS and it has
mostly a keyboard interface. But it has DRC and can export netlists that
can be read by some PCB programs (or can be converted). I made a FN2PADS
utility that did the job when I was still using Futurenet. I can email the
program files if anyone is interested. It does not have a direct print
feature (unless you have an ancient dot matrix printer), but it can plot in
HPGL format, which then can be read by many CAD programs like TurboCAD, and
from there you can print or create PDFs.

If you get a version of PADS Logic before their 2005 releases, it does not
require the dongle to run. The newer versions are limited, but I think they
still serve as a viewer, and you might even be able to print. Mostly they
disabled output commands, particularly SAVE, but I think there is a "back
door" where you can export ASCII if you do it using a VB script or an
external program such as my "PADSplus" that accesses the automation
interface.

Paul